Don't Fear Jesus came and Reigns Now Great news for us.

Second Coming
BRIEF OVERVIEW OF 70 A.D. AND CHRIST’S RETURN
The New Testament paints a clear picture for us, seen clearly by only a few. Because of man’s rejection of God back then, which is being repeated today, a sad state developed for man, but out of all this sadness developed the beautiful picture of God's love and devotion and a future for those who have dedicated their lives to the Father and His work. This picture also shows how He has created the new heaven and new earth and the fulfillment of what was put into place from the beginning: from the time man and woman sinned and were removed from God’s presence. All the prophecies fulfilled finally as creation itself groans in wait for this moment which came between 30 A.D. to 70 A.D.
Included in this picture is the birth, death and resurrected Christ and then 40 years later, his return in 70 A.D. (the end of a second 40 years of wondering and preparation)
The cross is the central and most significant event since the creation of the world with the removal of Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden. The cross was just 40 years before another climatic world event of 70 A.D. where God with His Christ came in Judgment in His Kingdom, not only to destroy the Jewish system and fulfill the old law and all prophecies, but also to remove the Jews from the earth forever. The cross was the beginning of this great event and it was fully manifested and completed in 70 A.D. when the harvest of the earth would come. "These were redeemed from among men, the firstfruits unto God and the Lamb". (Rev. 14:46)
In the N.T. period we see what remained of the old heaven and the old earth; of the Law of Moses located at physical Jerusalem which really began at Mt. Sinai (Acts 7:30 & Ex. 3:14). Physical Jerusalem was a shadow or type of the new city Jerusalem, a spiritual city that is described in Revelation as "coming down" out of heaven. (Rev. 22:14,15 & 21:2,10-27). This new city was replacing the old physical city located in Jerusalem during the 40 years from the cross to 70 A.D. when Christ returned in judgment and claimed his people in his kingdom. The same kingdom which he preached was coming soon while he was here. This was a time when man finally was redeemed and was returned to the Father. Death is no longer separating man from their Creator and after 4,000 years the Tree Of Life was again made available to spiritual man and the tares were removed at the harvest time.
This new city Jerusalem is referred to also as the bride of Christ and represents the picture of the marriage and the marriage feast where Christ is the groom. (Rev. 19:7 & 21:2,9) This also is the time which is reported in II Pet. 3:13 and Rev 21:1 where the replacement of the old heaven and old earth took place, which we read about in Isaiah 65:17-20 and 66:22. This depicts the old relationship and order between heaven and earth of the Hebrew people with their Creator at Jerusalem where all nations would flow to see God’s great works and his people. This change which took 40 years is also referred to as birth pains, meaning much suffering would come before the new change took place. See Acts 14:22: "We must through much tribulation Enter into the Kingdom of God".
This 40 years between the cross and Christ’s return in 70 A.D. replicates the 40 years of wondering in the wilderness as the Hebrew people did under Moses. The wandering was a transition period before the Jews entered the promised land when they were tried and tested and cleansed and prepared for entrance there. Joshua and Caleb were the only two people from the original group out of Egypt that was over the age of 20 who entered the promised land. (Numbers 32:9-13) Not even Moses was allowed to enter. Only those people under 20 years of age who left Egypt or those born in the wilderness entered the promised land. This means those who entered were between the ages of 1 day up to 59 years of age, except Caleb and Joshua. (1 Corinthians. 10:5-12) The adults who left Egypt were not worthy enough to enter the promised land. It took them 40 years to travel 40 miles and they died in their sins just as did the Hebrew Jews and Gentiles who were not worthy to enter Christ’s kingdom. There was a co-existing of the two periods of time before entrance into the promised land; very similar to the co-existence of Christ’s Kingdom with the old heaven and old earth under the Law as the Jewish age ended, and both times a remnant was saved to enter.
Christ was a mystery hidden from the world and still is to the world today a non-understood mystery. The events of the cross and 70 A.D. is what the world has been waiting for ever since man was separated from God. Now, under the reign of Christ, man is being brought back to the Creator and redeemed at last with victory over death by the blood of Christ and his resurrection, the perfect and final sacrifice. As Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden, their sin separated them from God the Father and were given a death sentence because they could no longer eat of the tree of life or remain in the presence of the Creator.
70 A.D. is known incorrectly as the "end of the world" (K.J.) but is rather the "end of the age", the Jewish age which was also the end of the Jews. Also it was the final end of the Law of Moses, the Old Covenant and end of the animal sacrifices and priesthood and never to be again. Also the fulfilling of all prophesied and all that was written. There was no more to be written because there was no more prophecies.
It was also the end of the graves where every soul "slept with the fathers". We no longer wait in the graves for Christ and his redeeming blood because he has come and shed his blood once for all times. Now at death we are resurrected.
It was the end also of the gift of the Holy Spirit. Such things as miracles, tongues, revelations and the work of the apostles, elders (bishops), prophets and preachers sent of God was also ended at that time. There was no promise of an end of the world mentioned anywhere nor a destruction of the world. There is not a prophet, elder or preacher on earth today or since that time that is sent of God. Anyone who claims to be one of these is counterfeit. Yet, in every gathering there is a pulpit with a preacher standing behind it and there are also usually elders; all counterfeit. Peter said in Acts 10:42... "and he commanded ‘us’ to preach unto the people". Now read 1 Peter 4:11--If any man speaks (let him speak) as the oracles of God: if any man minister (let him do it) as of the ability which God giveth, that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ". In Acts 10:40 Peter said, "and he commanded ‘us’ to preach unto the people". You see, it was not anyone who wanted to be a preacher, it was only those God Chose who spoke what they were given to speak. Compare that with those today who preach more than 33,000 different messages and doctrines. There is no one on earth today who should be in that position. Revelation from heaven to people is in the past. Because we have all of God’s revelation and there is no more being given today, preachers sent of God are no more. Therefore, anyone who stands before an assembly today on earth and declares or allows himself to be declared a preacher of God is a counterfeit. Paul told the Philippians (2:12)..."work out your own salvation with fear and trembling". He never declared to them to pick out a preacher from among them and put him up front to continue where I left off while I’m gone! This responsibility was given to the elders back then, not to preachers, and we can no longer have elders.
There were three epochs of time known as the heaven and earth. The first ending and the second beginning at Mt. Sinai and was manifested in Canaan after 40 years of wandering. The second was ending as the third was beginning at the cross and was manifested at 70 A.D., 40 years later when the end came to the Jews and their law in physical Jerusalem which was totally destroyed along with the Jewish race. Most of them were killed and of those captured, many or all died. The remnant escaped to Pella and vanished into other bloods resulting in no original Jews being left on the earth. Those today calling themselves Jews speak the Yiddish language because they are descendants of the Turks and Honds. They are not true, original Jews.
This judgment upon the Jews does not, however, prevent God’s judgment upon the nations again and again as He has done many times over the last 6,000 years.
Christ, the firstfruit, conquered death by his resurrection, the same death that came after the first sin in the garden. Then came the resurrection of the dead who "slept with the fathers", then the resurrected ones still alive chosen by God. Remember the parable Christ spoke to his disciples because they thought (Luke. 19:11-) that the Kingdom of God should immediately appear. A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and to return. It was depicting Christ when he left for 40 years and returned with his kingdom.
Remember also Luke. 9:27, "But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death till they see the Kingdom of God". Mark 1:15, "The time is fulfilled and the Kingdom of God is at hand, repent ye and believe the gospel".
Remember at the end of the 4th gospel (John 21-23) Jesus was talking to the apostles when he appeared to them the third time after he was risen from the dead, Peter seeing John asked Jesus, "Lord, and what shall this man do"? (asking about John, when and how he would die) (Vs. 22) "Jesus saith unto him, if I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee"? Here we have a timetable of Christ’s return within the days of John’s life and we know that John was still around when Christ returned in 70 A.D. as Christ prophesied. Romans 6:9,10... "Knowing Christ being raised from the dead...death hath no more dominion over him .II Tim. 1:10 says..."Christ, who hath abolished death... I Corinthians. 15:20-26 (23) Christ the firstfruit: afterwards they that are Christ’s at his coming: (24) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the Kingdom to God ...when he shall have put down all rule and authority and power... (25) For he must reign, till he hath put down all enemies under his feet (26)The last enemy is death". Notice here, "Christ the firstfruit" and then afterwards the others. Afterwards does not mean 2000 years later. (27)" For he hath put all things under his feet (except God) and when all things are subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject...(to God) that God may be all in all".
Paul knew that Christ was coming soon and in his time on earth. That’s why he suggested that it was better not to marry because he knew that this total destruction of the Jews was coming soon (70 A.D.) and that building a family would be in vain because within a few years all would be gone. Although he did tell them to go ahead and marry rather than sin in lust if they could not contain themselves. See 1 Corinthians. 7:8, 9.
The "religious world" today is exactly like the Jews were back then. They are sitting around waiting for Christ to come and restore Israel exactly as they waited back then. Others are waiting for Christ to meet us in the air and the world to be removed and cannot explain the 1,000 years. Does history repeat itself? Why do we point our fingers at the Jews for still waiting for the Messiah when we today are also waiting for the Messiah to return. The silly Jews never accepted His coming and the "Christians" never accepted his return in 70 A.D. Who is better or who is worse?
In Matthew 23:15, Jesus said, "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves". Does history repeat itself?
What I have placed before you here is a light overview or summary of my understanding of what God reveals to me through the scriptures. I am no longer waiting for Christ to return as the world today waits in vain and "preachers", not sent of God, keep on proclaiming, "He is coming" and thus deceive the world as did the Pharisees of old. Have you ever noticed how many people were lead to their death at the end of the last century and now even in Africa hundreds have died or are being killed by false preachers convincing them that the world was ending and taking all of their possessions. It’s so easy to get followers today because of hundreds of years of false teaching by preachers who are not sent of God. This is sad because God is not sending anymore preachers today and we should have been able to figure that out by now.
The religious world took a left turn hundreds of years ago and is still off course. There are no more preachers sent by God today just as there are no more prophets, apostles or elders, only people who lead other people astray just because it is so easy to do. Titus 1:3 says, "But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching (in the message) which is committed unto me (wherewith I was intrusted) according to the commandment of God our Savior". (see also, Acts 10:42; I Thessalonians. 2:4; and 2 Tim. 1:11) In 1 Thessalonians. 1:5 Paul said, "For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit". See also, 1 Corinthians. 2:4, "My preaching was...in demonstration of the Spirit and power". Examine now 1 Corinthians. 2:9-16. "But God hath revealed unto ‘us’ (those sent of God) the things which God hath prepared for them that love him". If you listen carefully to the above writings then you will clearly see that there is no one on earth today that can fill their shoes (sandals). Acts 20:27 & 28 states, "Take heed...to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you overseers (bishops, elders)". Now who made the elders of your "church"? Did the Holy Spirit make anyone of them overseers and fill them with the revelation of God? Can you find a single place in the scriptures where God gave us the choice or the responsibility to select for ourselves preachers or elders? If so, then please show me. There is no one on earth today over us as there has been in the past, such as, priests, apostles, elders, pastors or preachers. We have only one High Priest and one God and "all" that is written points to 70 A.D. when man no longer was separated from God but redeemed at last after 4,000 years of being separated from Him.
The next event for all of us is when our spirits leave this earth after the shedding of our flesh and bones. Then will be our time, our day of reckoning, when we will give account of the life we lived upon this earth and the earth will continue on. We will give reason to our Creator when we come before Him as to why we would listen to any preacher (not sent by Him) instead of going to Him in His word and hearing the preachers God did send and His only begotten son. Remember what Christ said in Matthew 7:7, "ask and it shall be given you: seek and ye shall find, knock, and it shall be opened unto you". Also Revelation 3:20, "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear "my voice", and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me". Vs. 22, "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the assemblies. If we would only look at scriptures for what they are and accept the fact that it was written to them of old 2000 years ago but not to us, but for us. If we would do that then most of the confusion would disappear.
Written by: B.R. Young AD70@erols.comChester, Virginia ©March 9, 2000

We have to talk, this is a study by samuel frost on Idealism

Todd Dennis and Preteristic Idealism

Written by Samuel Frost

Wednesday, 14 March 2007 08:07

I consider Dennis to be a good friend of mine and have fellowshipped with him many times. Hopefully, after this article is read, that fellowship will remain intact. With that being said, I do want to critically evaluate his article Introduction to a Hybrid of Preterism and Idealism [1]. I printed the article of twenty pages (numbered 1-20) and will use that for numbering my footnotes from this article. An Anti-Theological Approach? The first thing that struck me was not the "hybrid" Dennis is attempting to construct, but for the reasons why he was doing so. He thinks he is accomplishing something that is "superior for internal spiritual rest and peace" (5). This must mean that issues of "sin", "death" and "law", which some preterists have written off, are "not for today" (along with the Holy Spirit, faith, and preaching the gospel). Here, it appears, Dennis is reacting to what we at Reign of Christ Ministries have always called hyper-preterism. This includes those who see no need for baptism, the Lord's Table, or church officers. But, he goes further than that. He speaks of some FP (full preterists) as being "mentally convinced of the "absolute gospel truth of full preterism."" (5). Is there something wrong with being "mentally convinced"? Further, he seems to fall victim to the "faculty psychology" of Freud by dividing the "head" from the "heart" (15). Full preterism is head knowledge but the reason it has not yet exploded into converting the masses is because of its "coldness" (15). I have yet to see this in my experience, but I am not the one arguing from my experiences to point out the need to abandon FP. I try to keep experiences out of theological conceptualizing. However, with that said, my mind, as a result of FP, has been deeply affected - for the better. I asked one lady I ministered to while we had a regular church meeting what difference has preterism made for her. Her answer has burned in me for years: "it has made me a nicer person." We can site individual reactions to views all day long, and none of these will "prove" the need for anything one way or the other. Our bottom line is always: what does the Bible say? Dennis continues, though, in this fashion. Reformed FP are not universalists, not because of what the Bible says, but because we are committed more to Reformed soteriology (15). He then asks, "In light of the question of consistency, it should be considered how a consistent full preterist view, which acknowledges that the law, the devil, sin, and such were utterly destroyed in AD70, could not be considered lending itself to Comprehensive Redemption?" (15). We have been laboring on that very point for over 8 years now and believe that Evangelical theology has provided the answer: Story Framework. In other words, the Bible, particularly the Prophets, speak more to life in the Age to Come (our own day) than anything else. They defined the Age to Come. I will speak to this later. But, it seems that since questions have been raised, and since Dennis recognizes the "shoddy" work of "amateurs" (13) on the Internet (and methinks that's the real problem here - lack of intense theological training), then a need for another "hybrid" must be sought for. In roughly only 20 years of FP "scholarship", it must be abandoned! Luther's reform, if placed under such standards, never would have gotten off of the ground! Forget Copernicus! It wasn't until 60 years later that Kepler really made the heliocentric model fly. I think that Dennis is being far too premature here and has let some personal matters influence his thinking. This experience based criticism of Dennis is made more explicit as he continues: "By insisting that the devil, law, sin and death have been utterly destroyed for all in AD70, it leaves a sense of failure within those who find themselves still very much under the chains of law and sin in their own lives" (16). I have been a Christian all of my life. For 39 years I have been going to one church or another. I witnessed all sorts of "bondage". I myself have been in what some would call "bondage" to addictive substances. Was it the devil? Demons? Was it because I was "under the law"? Was it because I was "in the flesh"? Or was it because I did not "break through" to God in my prayer life? Was it because I spoke in tongues, or denied tongues? Was it because I was a Calvinist, or an Arminianist? Is FP now the culprit so that we have to look for another new view so that I can quit smoking and occasionally having one too many? In other words, do I need the devil, the law of Moses and covenantal understanding of "the sin" and "sin under the law of Moses" in order to explain why I had eight beers the other night instead of only three? This question applies to anything else that could be called, "sin." There are different Greek and Hebrew words for "sin" and they don't all mean the same thing. But, that requires a massive study of these words and their contexts. If one definition of "sin" is no longer needed, does that mean every definition is no longer needed? Did "evil" end in A.D. 70? Hardly. How do I know? The Bible tells me so. "Though many teachers may think that a proper doctrinal explanation of the victory we have in Christ should be sufficient to overcome this internal crisis, it is not nearly so effective; in fact, when your heart is suffering, the last thing that is needed is a pep talk or a mind game. No amount of head knowledge can heal heart suffering... rather, it makes the pain even more acute, and the situation seem even more hopeless" (16). Notice, again, the disparaging of "mind" and "head knowledge". If one runs a study of "heart" in the Hebrew, one will find that it means and is translated "mind". "As the heart thinks...." In the Bible, the heart thinks. More precise: the heart is the mind thinking. Another term for it is the "conscience." What is the cure for this "crisis"? Not more theology. Not a "pep-talk", but Pret-Idealism! Dennis makes this plain enough: "In spite of doctrinal problems, however, it was the clear inability of the view to answer the most important internal questions such as "what now?" and "why do I struggle if sin and the devil were utterly destroyed in ad70" that drove my quest for an explanation that could address the deepest needs of Christians. Though this motivation has been dismissed as compromised by being "seeker sensitive," it is the pastor's heart within that seeks to protect the flock by driving off the wolves (which are bad doctrines, not people)" (5). So, even here, to rescue the crushed heart, who is crushed because of a doctrinal inability to reason why he still masturbates to pornography if he, while a full preterist, no longer believes in "sin" and the "devil", must understand that the reason he is confused is because of his FP. He needs the pastor to drive off the bad doctrines of FP (pep-talk? Head knowledge?). Then, when this person sees that devil, sin and the law of Moses are manifested in every generation in cyclical fashion, and that this points to the "substance" of the spiritual reality of the parousia and presence of Christ, then the "deepest needs" of his heart, not his head, will be thrown into "peace". "And what is striking is that even as many of those in leadership positions in the past have dropped out as a result of their own inability to find rest and peace within the full preterist framework, the fundamental problem is left unadressed (sic). Dismissing the applicability of the tensions displayed in the New Testament, I believe, has a lot to do with this. By assuming perfection and total completion, we lose the results that come from the tension between old and new, and are only left with confusion as to why things aren't better than they are" (16). It is perhaps because we have a different audience who read the materials we offer that I read this with a little confusion! Maybe Dennis has encountered these folks, but in my 15 years of Preterism, I have not. In fact, I can refer the reader to one of many books (a pep talk, head game, I know) that shows that things are getting better. I plan to present that at my talk in Ohio this April. One's perspective, we believe, is flawed because the Bible is not informing it. Somehow, FP has become associated with "no more evil things in the world." But, when one sees that the Prophets themselves foretell of evil remaining in the Age to Come, this problem ceases. In fact, every Christian theology runs into this problem. Dispies have evil in the Millennium. Eternal conscience torment has evil existing forever, for that is the very thing that is being punished. Read Gerstner where he says to the effect that sinners are being punished eternally because they are eternally sinning. The reason I point out these views is that a large majority of Christian theology incorporates some eternality of evil. What, you became a FP and expected not to wrestle with the knowledge of good and evil any more? If God set it up that way in the beginning heavens and earth, what would make you think that it would not follow the pattern in the new heavens and the new earth? Sure, the devil is gone, but his role as prosecuter/accuser on the basis of law is finished. He no longer serves a useful purpose in the story. If you want him, you can have him. Just let me know by the gift of peering into the supernatural world where he is so that I can avoid him. A crisis is caused by old paradigms not being able to answer new questions (as Thomas Kuhn so correctly pointed out). An old paradigm must be replaced by another to resolve the crises. This is true. But, sometimes the crisis is merely caused by other factors as well that are irrelevant to the paradigm. The person who drinks too much will still drink too much even if he swallows (pun) Dennis' new hybrid. My own personal issues were not the result of my theology. In fact, FP has helped me deal with those issues effectively. Once I saw that I was no longer dealing with the devil, sin, and condemnation from God based upon performing 10 Keys For Successfully Pleasing God, my ability to begin to deal with issues realistically started. No more overnight vows ("I'll never do that again"). No more running to the altar and "rededicating" myself to the Lord. And no more nights spent abusing the "hell" out of myself for being such a wicked person. Jesus has set me free, not just "partially" or "ideally", but really and fully. Yes, this needs to be worked out in terms of theological scrutiny and that's why we started what we have started at Reign of Christ Ministries. It was the crises caused by the old eschatological models that brought about the new model of Full Preterism. The old models did not make sense. But, it appears to this writer that Dennis wants to integrate the worst of the old models back into some sort of "hybrid" model of preterism. He thinks it is necessary to have the devil, the Law, and the Death reintroduced in order to make sense of why Christians "struggle." Dennis, as the article continues, points out again that he is dealing with an extreme form of FP. Talking about how audience relevance is not really what it is all cracked up to be, he writes, "This trend of thinking slices and dices the Word, eliminating, in some cases, the need for prayer, the need for faith, and the existence of the Holy Spirit -- as well as the applicability of the Gospel of Christ itself!" (17). It is perhaps because of Dennis' posting so much material from anything remotely sporting the name "preterist" that this conclusion has arisen in some folks' minds. I have encountered one site ran by Steve Smith. I read three articles. I deleted them and the website from my computer. These were extremists. Run from them as fast as possible. FP does not "lead" to this. And, no, one is not being inconsistent if it does not lead to this. Those are broad generalizations. Each website, each individual spouting FP must be looked at as an individual, judged as an individual and received or not received as an individual. They cannot be taken as "representative" of the whole view. Not only is this an illogical (informal) thing to do, but we could not do that for any other view. Calvin's personal life and personal time when he was living should be taken to reflect every Calvinist (or ism for that matter). Same for Luther and Lutherans. Are all believers in quantum physics like Einstein? Each website is under its own merits and each should make that known. I remember coming to Dennis' website back in the mid or late nineties and simply being overwhelmed. What is preterism? Well, at general, at bottom, at its most common link is something significant happened in A.D. 70 that has been generally overlooked by scholars, if and only if you were coming from a Dispensationalist world, because the Presbyterians and Lutherans, and some Church of Christ folks, and many, many scholars have known about this for some time. I just crawled out from under a rock. Some FP have taken this common denominator and ran with it to their own oblivion. Todd thinks it is because of FP. I think it is because they went afoul of the Bible. To point out the oblivion of some, and then charge the entire system and those who hold to it as at fault is most illogical. Dennis again uses the language of Freud: "the inability of the mind to satisfy the heart" (15) is the charge he brings to Full Preterism. I am not sure how the "heart" is going to work out its interpretation, but since Dennis has not told us in detail, then we are left to speculate. As I have already pointed out, it appears that Dennis is mainly targeting the extreme forms of FP. As with the interpretive approach of FP, Dennis writes, "whatever advantage this may provide is more than nullified by the vast amounts of damaging doctrines reached as a result of embracing its fundamental conclusions" (17). By this he means, "Is it dangerous to one's faith to say that the Holy Spirit is no longer for today, having been marginalized by the parousia of Christ? Absolutely. It is an overthrow of people's faith to claim that faith itself is not for today, having been superseded by sight? Certainly. Is it destructive to teach that the gospel is not for today as many do, having been a specific message to the Jews of the approach of the kingdom? Without question" (17). To this let me add that I agree. But, perhaps Dennis is more aware of these types of FP schemes. I tuned them out years ago, but my point is that I tuned them out because they do not follow the teaching of Scriptures concerning the Age to Come. The Scriptures do not teach that in the Age to Come "faith" is no longer required. They do not teach that the Holy Spirit ceases His activity. They do not teach in the slightest that the Gospel stops being preached after the Second Coming. Dennis has rightly stated that these forms of hyper-preterism need to be abandoned, but it appears that he wants to abandon them, not for the reason of theological clarity or lack thereof, but because we need the devil around in order to explain why Johnny Christian still likes to watch rated R movies and drink too much on occasion. This is hardly a reason more than it is a failure to appreciate the truth of biblical FP. He stated that anyone teaching what we have in the victory of Christ is simply giving a "pep talk." It does not heal the "heart" (which he has pitted against the head). Thus, having the devil, the law, the sin, and the death still around somehow (and he does not explain how) helps heal the heart. After all, I don't struggle with alcohol for any other reason than the fact the devil tempts me daily, the law is over me all the time and the sin is constantly tugging at my heart. I am still in "transition" from "glory to glory" (16). Can a FP framework answer these charges? Dennis does not think (or feel) that it can, but the reasons (from his head or from his heart?) he has given for why it cannot are hardly justifiable. There is a better solution; better than going back to theological Egypt where we are still "in bondage", which is exactly what Dennis suggests that we do. The Theology of Idealist Preterism Here I will begin the second part of this paper to point out some of the theological aspects of Dennis' view. Some of it has already been pointed out. Basically, Dennis wants an "already/not yet" scheme. For him, the "transition" period from Christ's incarnate ministry to His spiritual ministry is recognized for the first century Christians (16). I don't have to read preterist materials to understand this. In fact, I make it a habit not to read any preterist material unless it is highly academic (like Max King, Don Preston, Kurt Simmons - who, though I disagree with, has kept a standard of academics in his writings owing to his educated background and practice). I do not pay much attention to the "new preterist website" written by Johnny Preterist who all of the sudden has become an "expert" in Greek and Hebrew (by consulting his Strong's of course), and a theological beacon. Dennis disparages of these types, too (13). Back to my point, I don't have to read preterist materials to get the idea of a unique transition generation of the first century Christians. I simply need to consult James Bannerman, author of The Church of Christ (Still Waters Revival Books, 1991, reprint - 1869). Bannerman taught alongside of the great Calvinist William Cunningham at Edinburgh, Scotland. He was, and is, highly esteemed as a theologian. I used him in my book, Misplaced Hope, to show that the transition period from natural Judaism to spiritual Judaism (Christianity) ended in A.D. 70. I make the point that we try to build off of tradition instead of seeking to obliterate it. I, for one, cannot stand the mentality of some preterists that reject creeds and councils solely because they are creeds and councils. They do so to their own peril. Now, Dennis does not want this transition period to be framed in a covenantal approach (from Old Covenant to New Covenant). He does not think that that is a correct way. We have already discussed the reasons why he does not. Rather, he wants an existential approach that actually applies the old to new transition to each individual believer today. This is where his approach runs into contradictions and must be abandoned as a plausible solution. By positing that he sees the transition in the NT period he believes that this ended in A.D. 70. But, he must start it up again for every subsequent generation down to our own day. That is, if they had the law of the old going to the law of the new, then we must have that same experience. Far be it that similarities can be shown. Dennis wants what really happened to them to also happen to us. If they had a devil roaming around looking to devour people, then we must have it, too. If they had the law over them and the condemnation of Adam, then we must so, too. The problem here is that nothing ever ends. At least, not here on earth. Spiritual life on earth is dismal. It is full of "tears", "struggles" and hearts needing healing. By rejecting the spiritual preterism, Dennis has hopped the train that Lloyd Dale, John Anderson and some forms of Reformed Preterism like that of Walt Hibbard and Ed Stevens are riding. That is, we don't really have the fullness and perfection of Christ until we die and go to heaven. Anderson has taken this to its logical conclusion: we are not even in the kingdom and born again until we physically die. All of these views/attempts are rooted in one thing: seeing with the eyes. As we have seen, Dennis' reasons for stating that we are not yet perfect are rooted in seeing in the natural. It's odd. Because Dennis wants the natural things to be pointers of the "substance" and invisible things. But, he "sees" tears and struggling among Christians and therefore cannot apply the fullness of the spiritual things to them precisely because they still struggle. "My approach can seem a bit urgent also because I believe there are very real consequences to looking on the outward for the substance of prophetic fulfillment" (5). These consequences are "dangerous" (17). But, isn't Dennis "looking on the outward" Christian and his tears and concluding that the fullness of the "substance" is not yet fully applied? He starts his entire criticism with the explicit acknowledgment that because of the outward struggling of the Christian today, the idea that we are "perfect" and "complete" in Christ must be abandoned. In fact, if we assume that we are perfect and complete in Christ, then we lose the life of the NT struggle and tension (16). I want to point out, again, though that Dennis did not arrive at this conclusion by considering how the fulfillment and perfection of what Christ has done for us in His cross and resurrection can be applied to the believer today in light of the fact that he still struggles, but, rather, starts with the struggling of the Christian (the outward) to conclude that the perfection and fulfillment cannot be applied today en toto. This alone is devastating to his approach. Our approach has been in line with much traditional theology. Preterism does not need to reinvent new theology. It merely needs to see the struggle that theology has had in the past and seek to untangle its knots. Justification by Faith, as a doctrine, has ran into this problem. From a Roman Catholic perspective, an outwardly sinning individual cannot be said to have full justification and pardon from God. This is applying the spiritual to the obviously, outwardly imperfect individual. Rather, then, justification is infused and becomes, in terms of process, akin to sanctification. No one can lay claim, they say, to complete holiness. One cannot arrive at that day until the process has ended in glorification; resurrection. But, the Reformed theologians argued that justification is immediate and entire. The New Perspectivists have criticized this older view of the Reformed faith. What's going on here? Eschatology! I cannot spell it out here, obviously. But, the theological reasons given for applying perfect, justifying salvation to the believer in spite of the fact of his outward imperfection has already been done centuries ago. I apply the same theological reasoning to sanctification and glorification. By seeing the Second Coming as already past, justification can be applied today fully and entirely, as well as sanctification and glorification. They are spiritual applications. The New Perspectivists says, rightly so, that since the Second Coming has not yet happened, then no one can be completely justified any more than any one can claim they have been completely sanctified. Dennis appears to be echoing the New Perspectivists. If Dennis cannot apply glorification and sanctification immediately to the believer today (as a result of the finished work of Christ), then neither can he apply full justification and pardon for sins to the individual today. This follows by strict logic. We are either in process from "glory to glory" as he believes we still are, or we are not. If we are, then I would agree with the New Perspectivists: we are not fully and entirely justified and must work to show that we are in Christ through Church participation and high moral living (now we get into the homeschooling crowd and women wearing only dresses crowd). The problem is eschatology. Dennis' solution affirms A.D. 70. However, "The differences between FP and P-I are actually quite fundamental, resulting in a countless number of divergences. The key difference is in where one sees the ultimate realm of prophetic fulfillment -- whether seeing prophecy referring exclusively to natural events (and their consequential spiritual application) fulfilled once-for-all in history, as in the case of FP, or in seeing Israel's prophecies and natural events as pictures signifying the greater realities fulfilled eternally in Christ, as is typically the case with P-I" (4). Now, one may not see the difference here in this paragraph. But, there is a difference. The ultimate "realm" of course is "up there" somewhere in heaven. It isn't here on earth because evil still exists, as well the sin, the law and the devil. Now, I will quote Dennis' article at length, because in the beginning points, he sounds like our Mike Grace, who has been feverishly laboring in hermeneutics proper for the last several years. "Though most full preterist systems don't deny that spiritual truths can be applied from the events of AD70 (though some do), the Idealist hybrid being presented in this article (which is just one of many) takes exactly the opposite view -- that AD70 itself was the application of everlasting spiritual realities. (That the fall of Jerusalem was given to illuminate greater things is completely consistent with the entire history of Israel's "schoolmaster" role to point to everlasting realities in Christ Jesus.) Therefore, by focusing primarily on the shadows and types given to signify true prophetic fulfillment, one misses their true significance altogether. This is not to dismiss the natural show, but rather to illuminate it, allowing the temple to stand (and fall) for that which it was always intended - a visible show of invisible things" (5). I don't think I could have said this better myself. In sum, "The things we see help us understand the things we can not" (5). Apply this to the believer: I cannot "see" that you are perfect, but I understand through revelation knowledge and the verdict of God that you are. By seeing that you are not perfect in this world helps me to understand the nature of the perfection that you have in Christ. It is a top-down understanding. I call the things that are not as though they were. I see an imperfect Christian, but I call him, "perfect" in every way. Next, he goes on to consider an interpretation of Church history: "In this light, the Roman-Jewish War was an even more significant event than is appreciated by even the most informed. It was, after all, not only the complete end of the people of God as an external nation, forever ending those religious and political things which were only ever "in part" or "copies of the true," but it was also the visible show of God's invisible hand as it works throughout all generations -- within His people, and upon His enemies" (5). And, "The reason why the entirety of Christian history on earth could thrive spiritually despite near complete ignorance of the Roman-Jewish war has to do with the fact that "AD70" didn't fulfill the eternal promises in Christ, but simply pointed thereto" (5). This last statement is a bit puzzling. A.D. 70 didn't "fulfill" anything, but pointed to the eternal promises in Christ. It was a fulfillment of promises given to Daniel, and it pointed to the eternal promises of Christ. But what are the eternal promises of Christ? Paul said that Jesus "came to fulfill the promises made to our forefathers", the Jewish forefathers and the promise made to Adam: that satan's head would be crushed, the sin would be brought to an end and the death would be swallowed up in victory. It is here that, as noted above, Dennis gets into confusion. The A.D. 70 event was not Jesus' second appearing, even though Hebrews 9.27 explicitly tells us this. It was, instead, pointing to the fact that Jesus was "already" reigning forever in heaven (6). What happened to the "transition period" he affirms? There was no "not yet"? He affirms, rightly so, that there is an "inside" and "outside" motif in the Kingdom of God. Again, Reign of Christ ministries has pointed out this in the OT and the NT, especially in the Gospel of Mark. Universalism is explicitly denied because the patterns of the stories, which make up the meta-story will not allow it. Preterist Universalism fails because it breaks the patterns - it breaks the stories. Here, Dennis goes on to suggest, rightly so, that the Kingdom of God grows and expands. This is in keeping with the numerous prophecies in the OT concerning the enlarging of the nation of Israel (Is 54, for example). This started back in Genesis as well when Noah speaks to his three sons. Ham is marked, but Shem will enlarge his tents to include Japheth. One has to follow the patterns in the story, so that when the substance arrived it would be easily identifiable according to the Scriptures (the Hebrew Bible). Anything not taught in the OT is not taught in the NT. Jesus announced that his kingdom, the one that was "near" and "at hand" and would "come" within that "generation" and was already making pre-parousaic preparations within his people, would be "like a mustard seed." Jerusalem's Fall would point to and mark the arrival of this kingdom on earth within God's people. But, the Fall was natural, and, naturally, was loud. The arrival of the kingdom was spiritual, and came with a still, small drop of a tiny mustard seed. You could hardly see its arrival. But, it would grow, and is growing, and will continue to grow so that "all the birds of the air" can come in and find rest among its branches. I think Dennis and I would agree here more or less, but this hardly leads to where he is going. The resurrection of the dead, the great, white throne judgment, etc. are all rightly seen as events that occur not in the natural realm, but in the spiritual realm. True. Physical bodies did not come out of their tombs in A.D. 70. It is good to see that Dennis here is still preteristic. He sees the continuing application of the resurrection of the dead to all those who have believed and will believe, and here he sounds more Reformed than ever. Sifting through the details here would allow for a great room of agreement between Dennis and our own work. If one were reading Dennis up to this point, not much has been said that would be radically different. Maybe this is because Dennis is targeting more radical forms of hyper-preterism. I certainly have not been paying any attention to these other views. They don't fit the framework, and this is usually seen in a just a few paragraphs, and so I stop reading them at that point. It's like hearing that Joseph Smith claims to be Prophet. I immediately dismiss Mormonism on that basis since prophecy ceased. I don't need to consider Mormon theology any longer. The same is true of Islam. Mohammed was not a Prophet. He was a con-artist. Dennis makes this plain in what he is targeting: "By looking at one historical manifestation of the everlasting substance and declaring it to be the only application contemplated by the Word of God has consequences upon peoples' lives" (7). Correct. Resurrection (regeneration) still happens today (see this wonderful article). Faith is still necessary today. Gospel preaching and church fellowship are necessary today. The law written in our hearts is not a list of suggestions. For Paul, the "law written in the heart" is summed up in one word for the Christian: conscience (see this article). However, when Dennis moves to consider his next topic, he writes, "One dramatic consequence of looking to events of the natural realm as the complete fullness of prophetic intent is to divorce the applicability of the internal tensions and pressures of the New Testament people from our lives -- as well as the solutions they found to settle the inner turmoil in the midst of persecution" (7). It is here that the issues raised above begins. Dennis denies that "near" and "at hand" mean "40 years" in the typical FP treatment. He affirms the "transition" period (40 years), but then strangely quotes a list passages that show that everything was already fulfilled before A.D. 70. Scholars, with which we agree, and who are not preterists, have long noted Paul's Greek language of transition. The famous phrase, "I am saved, I am being saved, I will be saved" says it all. This can apply equally to justification and sanctification. These Greek verbs, as Dennis fails to mention, are temporal forms. Thus, we speak of these as complete (aorist, either in regard to time or without regard to time, but never devoid of time), on-going (present aspect), and future. From one standpoint, it is complete, from another it is being made complete, and from another, something will happen to complete it. From this, the FP framework of the Forty Years, matching the patterns of previous OT stories, to A.D. 70 fits this Greek analysis like a glove. I do not need to consult preterists here. I need to consult Greek, technical commentaries to make my case. It didn't take much work to fit the FP framework into already existing theological concepts. That's why I like reading the dead guys. So, on one hand, Dennis affirms the transition period, and acknowledges that "the Roman-Jewish War was an even more significant event than is appreciated by even the most informed. It was, after all, not only the complete end of the people of God as an external nation, forever ending those religious and political things which were only ever "in part" or "copies of the true."" (5). That is, the transition period lead to the complete end of the people of God as an external nation. So, something happened in A.D. 70 which was not to be repeated. The transition period marked a heading towards the "complete end". This was unique, historically speaking. So Dennis appears to affirm. Also, as we have seen, Dennis ties the resurrection of the dead, the Judgment and the Second Coming to A.D. 70. Much of Dennis' reasoning here about establishment and manifestation can be seen most notably in Reformed theology. He points out John Gill, the staunch Calvinist who greatly influenced the works of modern Reformed theologians such as Clark, Reymond, Henry and Machen. If one is not familiar with these theological, and often difficult, concepts one may miss the full import of Dennis' treatment. I noted that that is one of the problems in FP: lack of theological thinking. It is interesting, though, to note that Dennis recommends Gill when he so disparages the "head" versus the "heart." "In the case of full preterism, it is generally treated as axiom that beyond AD70, in the historical "new covenant age," or "new heavens and earth," there is a new administration between God and the world at large... as opposed to simply a greater level of revelation of that which has always been the reality" (12). True. We have argued this point as well. The inside/outside motif of the entire Bible did not change in A.D. 70. God's stories has been illustrating this pattern since the Garden of Eden (Adam was created outside the Garden, taken and place "inside" the Garden, then exiled "out". This is a constant pattern in the Patriarchs and Israel and Jesus Himself). In short, the "reality" of what is revealed in a greater degree in Christ is that the inside/outside is a heavenly reality. Again, Universalism must be denied on this point because it breaks the mold. It is foreign. How this applies to the devil, the law, the sin, and the death Dennis attempts to spell out, but fails. Instead of seeing another solution, Dennis is reacting to the most extreme forms of FP. I think he himself goes to the extreme in the other direction, wanting to make every verse in the Bible individually meaningful for today by way of application, divorcing, it appears, any reading of Scripture through historical exegesis (a valid form of exegesis accepted by all Evangelical canons of thought). Dennis heads towards a mystical approach: "There are predictable consequences of viewing scripture solely in its "historical context," considering it as only to Jews under the "old covenant age" and the "old heavens and earth" -- and not to anyone "today." (many will say "the scriptures were not written TO us, but they are FOR us.. to which I disagree, considering that the author is not truly the historical man who put words to paper, but is the eternal Logos Spirit, speaking to His offspring - "See Original Writers' Intent Not Final Authority on Meaning"). This distinction between the written word and the Living Word reveals the bigger picture, in that we can either approach the study according to our man-centered level of comprehension, attempting to box in redemptive history with our futile systems of explanation (letter killeth), or we can recognize that what is at play is something completely transcendent and timeless (spirit giveth life)" (12,13). I can infer from this that Dennis' view is not "man made"? I can also see that he applies his own rule. The phrase "letter killeth" is from Paul. There, as virtually every modern commentator would agree, he is speaking of the outward form of obedience to Moses. But, with Dennis' existential and mystical approach, the "letter killeth" does not need a historical context. The phrase can now mean anything that is, "attempting to box in redemptive history with our futile systems of explanation." Very postmodern. But, this begs the question of Dennis' hybrid view. Is that not a box? And is he not trying to explain why Christians still struggle? If one follows this approach, the Scriptures can come to mean anything, so long as it is applied in a meaningful way, and did not rely on historical investigation. Next, he moves on to consider the issues of universalism. It is somehow implied that if "the Death" is destroyed, then universalism can make a case. False. Every eschatology has an end to "the Death". When the Death is destroyed for, say, Premillennialists, does that mean that everyone is now brought to heaven? How can some remain in the Second Death when the First Death is gone? Dennis seems to think that this is a serious problem. "And though I do not embrace Universalism myself, I absolutely recognize that to them belongs the progressive banner of full preterism, and that they are correct to declare themselves the most consistent preterists" (14). This is entirely false. If it were true, then every eschatological system leads to universalism because every system, at some point, has an end to the Death! Dennis' remarks here are not based on reasoning, but upon something else. "The numbers do not lie, and point directly to the intimate relationship between all forms of full preterist eschatology and Universalism. In the coming months, the two hundred year history of Preterist Universalism will be presented here" (14). Again, what numbers? Where did he get these numbers? Were they accurately taken, and monitored and checked several times for flaws? When was a national, historical census taken to reflect these numbers? Where's the data? Or, is Dennis merely reflecting something else? Universalism is not a preterist problem precisely because preterism did not invent universalism! One can go back to Origen for that. Christians are to blame for Universalism, therefore, Christians are wrong! Just because some universalists are using preterism for a framework that they think helps there case does not make Dennis' accusations here true. This type of arguing I am used to hearing from atheists who reason that Luther was catalyst for Hitler's power. Dennis should be above such types of obvious fallacies. "Considering the sweeping nature of the fundamental assumption of world-wide New Covenant / New Heavens and Earth application in the post-AD70 environment, the answers given to that question demand intense scrutiny. Though particular answers to that dilemma have been offered, they usually require the creation of a previously unknown damning "law of Christ" or some other "doctrinal patch" to cover this hole -- such as a redefinition of "second death," or the creation of a brand new laws which secure for them the balance between particular atonement with universal eschatology. Obviously, the Reformed answer will be that Adam's death still applies to those not in Christ -- which is precisely the point of this article.. that the consummation is to be found IN CHRIST, and not in history. To say that the "consummation of the ages is in ad70" in a universal fashion, and then to make the reception of atonement individually in Christ regardless of that consummation is the inconsistency with which the "historical corporate consummationism" of the Reformed (all limited atonement full preterist systems) are forced to live" (15). I hope this is not a technical response from Dennis. Let us rephrase his words here in light of Isaiah 26.10, speaking of the new heavens and new earth: "And the wicked man is shown grace, he does not learn righteousness even in a land of uprightness. And he does not see the majesty of the Lord" (my translation). "It is taught among Reformed full prets that death was defeated for all, yet that one must be in Christ to receive its benefits" (15). Grace is shown to all, but the wicked do not receive its benefits. They do not see the majesty of the Lord. How can that be? Further, in Zechariah 14.1-11 is, largely, Rev 21, 22. After the events of 1-11 we have 12-21. Not all nations submit. But, "there is only one king over all the land" (14.9). How can Yahweh rule over the world, yet some nations receive not the benefits of this reign? When seen in this light, Dennis appears to forget that there is a Second Death. This is much like the First Death. In Greek, it is "the Death" and "the second one, the Death". The First Death came through Adam and is equal to "the condemnation" (Rom 5). So, why would we not think that since the Tree of Life is now manifest in God's People, that the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil ceased? Man has two trees to eat from. Following the pattern, the eternal reality of creation is seen also in the Age to Come new heavens and new earth. You have two Trees. Dismiss the Tree of Life (fail to submit to the King of all the Earth and who is King over all the kingdoms of the world), and is there not to be any condemnation? The new covenant is not a condemnation-less covenant! No universalist can get around the FACT of The Second One, The Death." Dennis says this is "redefinition". In what way he never explains. He just makes the charge and moves on, parading the universalists as the most consistent FP system! The fact of the matter is that Dennis' view falls apart here, too. He must deal with the swallowing up of "the death" and "the second one, the death." When was "the Death" swallowed? Dennis still has it around. When was satan's head crushed? He is still "roaming." When did the Second Death take the place of the now defunct First Death, since the First Death is thrown into the power of the fires of the Second Death. It is condemned, as well as satan and the beast. When did this happen? Or, has it always been the eternal heavenly reality only now being manifested that it has always been the case that the Death has been swallowed up in the Second Death? Confused yet? Good. Conclusion This has been one of the toughest periods in my life. I have aimed my guns at Ed Stevens rapture solution, and because I am friends with Virgil Vaduva and lend a hand at Planet Preterist, I have lost a few friends (Dave Green was one of them, who thinks very close along our lines). John Anderson and Lloyd Dale have gone off the path in our estimation as well. And, now, Todd Dennis. One would think that FP is falling apart, but, I comfort myself with history. The Reformation was falling apart and the Peasants Revolt almost killed it. One could say this about anything. I don't follow empirically based criticisms. I could easily site numbers and e-mails with our website, or with Planet Preterist that shows a remarkable growth. I don't encounter universalists much. I have met maybe two or three. I have conversed with some of them. But I don't see them in droves. I have spoken at every major preterist conference in the past 6 years and I just don't see it. I see new faces every years, but not raving universalists. Yes, I have heard of stories of those losing their faith over FP. Again, that case can be made for Calvinism and Arminianism. It's a fallacy to argue like that. So, I never pay attention to those types of arguments. We just kept on digging in Evangelical scholarship and journals, documenting the confirmation of the biblical FP framework, not going to the extremes of hyper-preterism, not going back to the useless "already/not yet" scheme. Dennis applies the already/not yet to us today so that Christian sin can be meaningful. After all, that's what he is really after. Let's review quickly the facts: 1. FP cannot answer the reason why Christians sin. 2. Universalism is the most logically consistent FP framework. Therefore, 3. We must apply the law, the sin, and the devil to the Christian again to answer number1. And, we must abandon FP so that we do not arrive at the more consistent universalistic FP. That's it in a nutshell. How Dennis attempts to do this results in a quasi-mystical approach to interpreting the Scriptures. The individual, rather than the text read in its historically God-given time, takes precedent. "God spoke to us in the past..." (Hebr 1.1). We must accept that God is timeless and all the truths of the promises have always been fulfilled. They are only being manifested in time as pointing to this fact. But, they are not always manifested and established for the individual, even though, they may be timelessly true. I sound like a Buddhist here. For me, this is far from biblical reasoning. Dennis disdains logical reasoning as man centered and head knowledge. It cannot answer the "heart." I could argue against these notions in massive detail, but for now, step back and take a picture of what you have just read between Dennis and myself. Rather than see a need for the devil, the law and the sin, I can see that in the Age to Come, the Bible does not see a cessation of evil knowledge (evil thinking), nor does it see a mass conversion of every human being. Universalism does not fulfill any OT prophecy, therefore it is wrong. The cessation of evil does not fulfill any biblical prophecy. The Death is swallowed up in Isaiah, but people still die, still refuse to see the manifestation of the grace of God and learn righteousness. They are subjected to what Isaiah called "the fire of sulpher". John got it from Isaiah. If Isaiah didn't say it, neither did John. I do not, then, need the devil. I have the knowledge of good and evil. Not every sin is a transgression of Moses' law. By Dennis' stereotypically reducing the Christian struggle today to "bondage" and "chains" to sin, he has effectively dismissed the context of Paul (that's a letter killeth reading), and has effectively undercut the work of Christ in terms of the historical context in which God chose to reveal his Purpose in Christ for all believers. Instead of seeking to describe sin in terms of good and evil and its knowledge, Dennis has jumped back to describe sin in terms of Moses' law. Why he thinks this is good for the Christian today I have no idea. If the death is still around, then so is your condemnation. With the destruction of the Death, the condemnation in Adam was effectively removed. Dennis asks how can this be for the believer, but not for the wicked. This is answered by replacing the First Death with a new heavens and new earth Death, the Second one. Had this not been revealed to us, and had this verdict of God's court been uttered, then universalism can make a case. As such, it cannot. The Second Death prevents universalism from being true. It is like God saying, "the Gospel is going to the world, to being healing to nations and reveal my son, Jesus. But, not every one is going to see my glory. Some will refuse it, and for them, I have decreed a Second Death for those who reject the New Tree of Life." Pretty simple to me...but that's because I am following the Story and the patterns in the stories that make up the Story. These stories all repeat the same Story, and Revelation 21,22 is no different. I have seen Revelation 21,22 before in the OT many times. In fact, it is even in Genesis. There, too, I have seen the knowledge of good and evil. Rather than counseling struggling Christians (of which I am one) with, "you are still fighting the devil, the law and the sin" our approach offers a much more victorious solution. What Christians struggle with is not the Law of Moses, the Old Covenant, the First Death, the Sin, or being "in Adam." What they struggle with is being a new creation in Christ, perfected, made holy and glorified in the Body of Christ while at the same time having the knowledge of Good and Evil. When Adam ate of this tree, God stated, "now he has become like one of us, knowing good from evil." The process to being made in the image of Christ had begun. Christ had the knowledge of good and evil and one more thing Adam did not have: eternal life. Thus, God, in Genesis, cuts man off from the tree of life, "lest he have eternal life." But, it is eternal life with the Father that Jesus came to give. If the knowing good and evil made Adam more "like" God, then how much more "like" God would he be if given eternal life, which "only God is eternal."? The new creation man in Christ knows good from evil and has eternal life. The man in Adam has only knowledge. Now, and this is all too painfully brief, the penalty for Adam was what Paul called, "the condemnation" (Rom 5.16). But, for those in Christ "the condemnation" is no more (Rom 8.1). Indeed, the First Death has been annulled for all men, but for those who hate the Light in the new heavens and new earth, their "condemnation remains" (John 3.18), passing into the Second Condemnation for refusing to eat from the Tree of Life. For the Christian, though, the struggle in the age to come are not because of law, sin and death. It is because he has the knowledge of good and evil. His struggle is not with satan and the first death, but with knowledge. It is with knowledge, applied by the Spirit, that a solution to the struggle can be remedied. I struggle with the knowledge of evil in that I have experienced evil thoughts and did them. This can become a habit. Habits are hard to break. But this is hardly because I am a slave to sin! Such categories are to be rejected. If I am still subjected to the devil, then perhaps exorcism is legitimate! When it is seen that I am not dealing with gambling demons, drinking demons or lust demons, and that I am dealing with something that I can handle through the knowledge of the Gospel with the help and counsel of my friends, then this self-condemnation loathing should begin to fizzle. I am righteous. I am holy. I have been completely made new and because of this fact, I am going to plow through my struggle with evil. My failures with evil we may call, "sin". The Law of the fullness of Christ, which is love, is broken. But, for Adam any infraction of breaking the law of the Garden was met with separation, exile, and condemnation. Is that the case today for the Christian? Would Dennis actually suggest that God condemns us the way he condemned Adam? Is this to be repeated and reapplied? Some Christians have this view, and it is very, very sad. With Adam, God removed him from his presence. With us, because we are made holy and glorified in the Body of Christ, God says, "come here, Son, Daughter. Why do you think the need to run away from me? I do not condemn you. I love you. That's what hurts right now. The love and perfection I have wonderfully bestowed upon you and the glory I have given to you by grace is what hurts you in your heart when you lose occasionally to evil thoughts. But know this! I do not condemn you. Your pain should cause you to come to me, see my grace and my face. Here, now, let me wipe away those tears and put a smile on your face." Dennis' view, nor any other Christian eschatology can offer such a picture of God because he is still, somehow, the God afar off. [1] http://preteristarchive.com/Preterist-Idealism/dennis-todd_06-03.html <> Next >

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Free From Churchainty and how good it feels!!!

To bewitched means to go back to something that you was set free from. We know why Paul told them about being foolish. No more works of the law, it is now by faith so what happen to these people. Like today when your "free" from the bondage of "churchainty" people who are not free don't understand how you go on without it that is churchainty. What is churchainty is the same as the law dead works. Trying to false something as truth with many nonspiritual points. People who are in this place call it churchainty and have not left "yet" these things and maybe never will leave them. Why because they believe them to be bibical teachings better know as the traditions of men. As you can read you can see i didn't say traditons of Jesus,Paul,Peter,James,etc,etc. This is why I'm writing this people about this "bewitched into" the traditions of men. We are in the everlasting covenant people so we need to get it strait now that we are "free" from churchainty. To start off with sometimes i get upset then other times i'm sad about it. Why because churchainty has "no substances" behind it. Let me name a few here that churchanity people who are in many ways like the Jews of Jesus day. 1 They do things and say things to make people scared if they don't do them there way like the Jews. Lets start of with the biggest of them all you must "find" you a building aka church building or should i say a house church. The bible never taught a building calling it a "church building" or house church. But it was "house to house" not one "central place" like a church building concept. Why is because what did Jesus say in John,4:20 to the women. Frist she tried to put words in his mouth, our fathers "worshiped" in this mountain: and ye say that in Jerusalem is the "place" where men ought to worship. Wow is this what we here today of course it is where do you go to, where is the "place" of your worship. Lets check out what Jesus answer is to you people today and her back then. John, 4:21 Jesus saith unto her Women, believe me, the hour cometh when ye shall neither "in this mountain nor yet at Jerusalem worship the Father" John, 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. So what was Jesus answer to that women was NO "place" is the place of worship. Let me add some back up to this is Acts, 7:48 to 51 it wasn't about the "place" anymore. We are the temple now 1 Cor, 3:16, 2 Cor, 6:16. So trying to "sing" when David said let us go into the house of the Lord it's not for today's body. The other one is you need a covering there is no bible context for this. Another thing is that they need to feed you this makes me laugh in our day. Do you not have a bible maybe two or three of them. Babes in Christ is one thing or discipleship of someone is different. Then they still must grow up in the word from their "own" bible. Who "feeds" them the person who says we need this covering thing. When do they stop feeding of who ever that might be? These bewitch tactics are what they do in churchainty like the Jews to try to bring people back into this bondage to churchainty. Just because somebody been doing something so long that doesn't "mean" God is behind it like churchainty. The sad thing is that people who are not saved,born again attached them selves to this churchainty. Thinking they are with God because of this attachedment to this traditions of men.

The Real Remnant / Elect of God are Who and When!!!

The Reason I decided to write on this subject is because there is only one remnant/elect of God. I know that many believe in this today's teaching they called them selves the elect of God. But does the bible called them the elect of God today? Now like always we "must" start from the old testament and work up to the new testament. So who was called God's remnant first was it the descendant of Israel or the Gentiles? Lets take a look at the word remnant what it means. In the Hebrew is 8300 which reads sariyd, a survivor,alive,left,remain(ing)remnant,rest. Now lets look at the the word elect in the old testament which is 972 bachiyr select-choose,chosen one, elect. First lets look at the "remnant" in the bible and who it was. The main one is "Isaiah, 45:4" Isaiah,1:9,Isaiah,10:20 to 22,Isaiah,11:11,Jeremiah,6:9. The point is that they were the remnant of Israel. Not a gentiles remnant in our day. Now the "elect" of the old testament 1 Chronicles,16:13, Psalm,89:3, Psalm,106:23, Isaiah,42:1,65:9,65:15. Are we getting the point of His remnant/Elect of the old testament. They were the chosen of Israel or "certain people" chosen for a work for God. Not some people walking around calling themselves the elect/chosen today. In the first century the people were called 1 Peter,2:9 But "ye" are a chosen "generation"
Now the problems start with the new testament when these people start quoting everything in the new, to support this teaching that there are the elect of the today. The problem is that Isaiah,45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and "Israel mine elect", I have called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not know me. Also let me used Isaiah,46:3 Hearken unto me, O house of Jacob, and all the "remnant" 7611 in the Hebrew, of the house of Isreal. In the New testament we have the remnant/elect left over of Isreal from the old. These people chosen to fulfilled all things that were written. The Gentiles that were "grafted in" where part of that chosen generation along with the remnant in Romans,9:27 Isaiah also crieth concerning "Israel" though the number of the children of Isreal be as the sand of the sea, a "remnant shall be saved" So in New Testament the remnant/elect is from old testament. Now the verses in the new we start out with Matthew, 24:4, 24:31, Mark,13:20,22,27 Luke, 18:7, Romans, 8:33,Romans,9:27 with Isaiah,10:22, Romans 11:1,11:5, Key verse is "11:7 what then Iseal hath not obtained that which he seeketh for but the "election"1589 Greek hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. Who was blinded? Read Romans,11:11 to 15. Then in Romans, 11:25,26 the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. Romans,11:26 and so all Isreal shall be saved the key is as it is written there shall come out of Zion the Deliver and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. Romans,11:27 For this is my "covenant" unto them who? when I shall take away their sins. Romans,11:28 As concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the "election" the are beloved for the father's sakes. Well were do we stand now in the new testament as believer's today. Your faith in Christ is were you stand,but you could not have
been that chosen generation 2oooyrs ago. How could you be that? This were we stand now is Ephesians,3:21 unto him be the glory in the "church" by Christ Jesus throughout all ages world without end Amen!!

Why do you people wrestle with "this" and fight against it !!

Thought 1, is Psalms:56:4 In God I will praise his "word" in God I have put my trust: I will not fear what flesh can do unto me.

Thought 2, is Matthew:13:51 "Jesus" saith unto"them", have you understood "all" these things "they" say unto Him "YES" Lord.

Thought 3, is why people can't and will not understand is because of what? What is blocking the understanding? Thank God for people who did there study on things like J.E. Gautier Jr praise God for you brother. Hopefully it will help those who are looking to "understand" in our day. Whoever that may be so they can say like them "yes" we got it now!!

The Domino Effect of Matthew 16:27

J. E. Gautier Jr.

"Obviously the full preterists have no desire to deviate from Scripture. They bear the burden in this controversy of showing that creedal orthodoxy has been wrong at crucial points of eschatological understanding."(The Last Days According to Jesus, RC Sproul, pp.156-157)

R.C. Sproul is not a full preterist. When asked why, his response, "The Resurrection". Yet, at the1999 Ligonier Conference, in his introductory lesson, "Last Days Madness" he assigned Matthew 16:27 and 28 to AD 70. In the past, many have tried to detach verse 27, from the time-frame statement of verse 28. Or they say, it was His Transfiguration. These attempts have fallen short. Giving up Matthew 16:27 to "what happened in AD 70" is huge! The resultant "domino effect" cannot be overstated. Consequently, Mr. Sproul has "given away the farm"!

The Effect of Sproul’s Concession

Isn't Matthew 16:27, speaking of the same Resurrection and Judgment scene as Revelation 20:12-13, and 22:12?

Mtt. 16:27 "...and then He will reward each according to his work."
Rev. 20:12 "...And the dead were judged according to their works..."
Rev. 20:13 "...And they were judged, each one according to his works."
Rev. 22:12 "And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work."

Take a look at Matthew 16:27 (Gr. mello) alongside Revelation 22:12

"For the Son of Man is about to come...and then He will reward each according to his works." (Mtt.16:27)

"And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work." (Rev.22:12)

Isn’t it also when He would separate the sheep from the goats? (what does this do to the "splitting" of the Olivet Discourse?)

Matthew 16:27-28 "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. 28 Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

Matthew 25:31-34 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, (Joel 3:2) and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world."

It’s also found in Matthew 24:30-31? Which Ken Gentry and R.C. Sproul posit at AD 70.

Matthew 16:27 "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels..."

Matthew 24:30-31 "...the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Doesn’t Matthew 24:30-31, then determine that I Thessalonians 4:16, was also fulfilled by AD 70?

Matthew 24:30-31 "...the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect (His wheat, Mtt.3:12; 13:38; His sheep, Mtt.25:32) from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first."

And if I Thessalonians 4:16, then I Corinthians 15:52.

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first."

I Corinthians 15:52 "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised..."

To Fulfill All Things

Jesus said that "all things" that had been written in the Law and by the Prophets would be completely fulfilled. By when?

Luke 21:20, 22 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near...For these are the days of vengeance,(Is.61:2; 63:4) that all things which are written may be fulfilled."

Matthew 5:17-18 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, (Is.51:6; Heb.8:13) one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

Luke 24:44-45 "He said to them, ‘These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.’ And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures."

Revelation 17:17 "For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled."

In The Days of Vengeance, David Chilton writes this about Revelation 17:17,

"The war between Christ and the Beast, culminating in the desolation of the Harlot, took place in the fulfillment of God’s announcements through His prophets. The curses of the Covenant (Deut. 28) were executed on Israel through the Beast and the ten horns. They were the instruments of God’s wrath, as Christ foretold in His discourse on the Mount of Olives. During these horrifying ‘days of vengeance,’ He said, all things that were written would be fulfilled (Luke 21:22). Vision and prophecy would be sealed and completed in the destruction of the old world order (Dan. 9:24)." p.442

Christ’s Coming would mean the end for the types and shadows of the Old Covenant. Not in the destruction or destroying of them, but in their fulfillment.

Isaiah 51:5-8 "My righteousness is near, My salvation has gone forth, And My arms will judge the peoples... 6 For the heavens will vanish away like smoke, The earth will grow old like a garment... (Heb.1:11; 8:13) 8 But My righteousness will be forever, And My salvation from generation to generation."

Matthew 9:16-17 "No one puts a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment; for the patch pulls away from the garment, and the tear is made worse. 17 Nor do they put new wine into old wineskins, or else the wineskins break, the wine is spilled, and the wineskins are ruined. But they put new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved."

"Do not think that I came to destroy... I did not come to destroy but to fulfill."

The Passing of Heaven and Earth

By the time of Jerusalem’s desolation by Titus and the Roman armies, the Law and Prophets would be fulfilled. And heaven and earth would have passed away (Mtt.5:17-18). But it couldn’t have been the literal Heaven and planet Earth that Jesus was speaking of. How could it? We know that the Law with its sacrificial system was completed in Christ (Heb.10:1,14) and has passed away. So to what "heaven and earth" was Jesus referring?

Isaiah 51:16 "That I may plant the heavens, Lay the foundations of the earth, And say to Zion, ' You are My people.' "

Revelation 20:11; 21:1 "Then I saw the great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."

Hebrews 10:9 "...then He said, ' Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.' He takes away the first that He may establish the second."

Isaiah 51:6 "For the heavens will vanish away like smoke, The earth will grow old like a garment."

Hebrews 8:13 "In that He says, ' A new covenant,' He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away."

See "Dr. John Owens’ sermon on, New Heavens and Earth"

The Days of Vengeance

Luke 4:16-21 "So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read. 17 And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written: 18 ‘The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me, Because He has anointed Me To preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And recovery of sight to the blind, To set at liberty those who are oppressed; 19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD." 20 Then He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21 And He began to say to them, "Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing."

Why did Jesus quit reading and close the Scriptures where He did? The very next line found in the Isaiah passage (Is 61:1-2) says, "And the day of vengeance of our God." Why didn’t Jesus continue reading? Could it be, because "the day of vengeance" had not yet been fulfilled in their hearing on that day?

Concerning Isaiah 61, the New Geneva Study Bible is quick to note:

"day of vengeance. Jesus closed the book before reading this portion of Isaiah’s oracle (Luke 4:18-20). The time of healing belongs to His first coming; the time of judgment to the second (I Thess. 1:10) "

The New Geneva Study Bible, of which Mr. Sproul is the General Editor, assigns the "day of vengeance" to "the time of judgment" at Christ’s "second" Coming! Just ONE Second Coming not TWO!

So, if we apply the NGSB’s number of Second Comings (ONE), then, according to Jesus’ own words, when would it occur? (following this pattern the NGSB must also posit I Thess. 1:10 at AD 70)

Luke 21:20, 22 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near...For these are the days of vengeance."

Honestly, didn’t the Prophets speak of only ONE Second Coming? Hasn’t the New Testament always referred to just ONE parousia? It did before we "saw" the time statements! What happened? Was the Bible re-written while we weren’t looking, and now there’s TWO Second Comings of the Son of Man?!?!

So, by the time the "first" heaven and earth, (Old Covenant / Law and Prophets) had "vanished away"; per Christ’s words, the following passages must have been fulfilled.

Isaiah 62:11-12; 63:4 "Indeed the LORD has proclaimed To the end of the world: ' Say to the daughter of Zion, ' Surely your salvation is coming; Behold, His reward is with Him, (Mtt.16:27; Rev.22:12) And His work before Him.' ' And they shall call them The Holy People, The Redeemed of the Lord... 63:4 For the day of vengeance (Lk.21:22) is in My heart, And the year of My redeemed has come."

Psalm 62:12 "Also to You, O Lord, belongs mercy; For You render to each one according to his work."

Proverbs 24:12 "If you say, ' Surely we did not know this,' Does not He who weighs the hearts consider it? He who keeps your soul, does He not know it? And will He not render to each man according to his deeds?"

Paul taught the first-century Christians in Rome and Corinth this same message:

Romans 2:5-9 "But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who ' will render to each one according to his deeds': eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness - indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil..." (BTW- Paul is quoting from the O.T. here)

I Corinthians 3:11-15 "For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward (Is.62:11; Mtt.16:27; Rev.22:12). If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."

Malachi 3:2-3; 4:1 "But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand (Rev.6:17) when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire...He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver; 4:1 For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up."

Daniel 12:10 "Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand."

Remember, Malachi and Daniel are Old Testament Prophets. And Jesus said, that He had come to fulfill the Prophets. And that "all" these things would be fulfilled by...

The Day of the Lord

Malachi 4:5 "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord."

Matthew 11:13-14 "For all of the prophets and law prophesied until John. And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who is to come."

How many "day(s) of the Lord" did Malachi prophesy of ? Is that ONE New Testament "day of the Lord", still not here, 2,000 years after John the Baptist / Elijah had "prepared the way of the LORD and made His paths straight"? How many "Day" does Paul speak of ? How many "great and dreadful day of the Lord" does the New Testament refer? You can’t even ask the question without improper grammar!

Malachi 4:1 " 'And the day which is coming shall burn them up,' Says the LORD of hosts, ' That will leave them neither root nor branch.' "

Luke 13:6-9 "He also spoke this parable: ' A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. 7 Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, ' Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?' 8 But he answered and said to him,' Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it. 9 And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down.' "

Matthew 3:1-12 "In those days John the Baptist (Elijah JEGjr) came preaching...' Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand! ' 7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, ' Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come (Gr. mello-about to be)? Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance... 10 And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree that which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 12 His winnowing fan is in His hand,("Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!"Js.5:9) and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Isn’t separating the wheat from the chaff, the same as dividing His sheep from the goats? (Mtt.25:32) How about the gathering of the elect? (Mtt.24:31)

Aren’t all of these also representative of the Harvest at the end of the age?

Matthew 9:36-10:23 "But when He saw the multitudes, He was moved with compassion for them, because they were weary and scattered, like sheep having no shepherd. 37 Then He said to His disciples, ‘The harvest truly is plentiful, but the laborers are few. 38 Therefore pray the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest.’ 10:1 And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. 5 These twelve Jesus sent out... 7 ‘And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 16 Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves... 17 But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues... 22 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. 23 When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.’"

Christ’s disciples were the "laborers" of the Harvest.
And "the ‘reapers’ are the angels."

Matthew 13:36-43 "...Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field. 37 He answered and said to them: ‘He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels (Mtt.16:27; 24:31). 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire (Mtt.3:1-12), so it will be at the end of this age (Christ was born, lived and died under the Law. His "this age", would be the present age, then existing, when He spoke. The Old Covenant Age.- Gr. aion). 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!’"

Matthew 13:51 "Jesus said to them, ‘Have you understood all these things?’ They said to Him, ‘Yes, Lord.’"

Ken Gentry says that full preterism: "...goes too far by extending valid observations gathered from temporally confined judgment passages (texts including such delimitations as ‘soon’ and ‘at hand’) to passages that are not temporally constrained and that actually prophesy the future advent of Christ." (Tabletalk magazine, January 1999, p.56)

Not once, in the entire New Testament, do we have an instance of a disciple asking for verification from Jesus, as to which "coming" He is now referring! Nowhere do we read of one of them, raising their hand and saying, "Whoa! Wait a minute Jesus, back up, you lost me there! Now, which parousia are you talking about this time?"

Nor is there a time when Christ says, "O.K., I’m no longer speaking of the coming of the Son of Man that directly effects you. I’m now speaking of the one..."

And nowhere in the New Testament do we find an explicit time statement, like those that Gentry demands, "that actually prophesy the future advent of Christ." Not one!

"Have you understood all these things? Yes, Lord."

Joel 2:28-32; 3:1-17 "And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; your sons and daughters shall prophesy, Your old men shall dream dreams, Your young men shall see visions. 30 And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: Blood and fire and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD. 32 And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved
3:1 For behold, in those days and at that time, When I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also gather all nations, (Mtt.25:32) And bring them down to the Valley of Jehosaphat; And I will enter into judgment with them there... 12 Let the nations be wakened, and come up to the Valley of Jehosaphat; for there I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations. 13 Put in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe. Come, go down; For the winepress is full, The vats overflow- For their wickedness is great. 14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. 15 The sun and moon will grow dark, And the stars will diminish their brightness. 16 The LORD also will roar from Zion, And utter His voice from Jerusalem; The heavens and earth will shake; (Lk.21:26) But the LORD will be a shelter for His people, And the strength of the children of Israel. 17 So you shall know that I am the LORD your God, Dwelling in Zion My holy mountain. Then Jerusalem shall be holy, And no aliens shall ever pass through her again." (see Eph.2:12-13,19-22)

Revelation 14:1-20 "Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, ‘Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.’ 16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped. 17 Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, ‘Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe.’ 19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city..." (see also Isaiah 5)

Revelation 19:11-16 "Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. ‘He will rule them with an iron scepter.’ He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS."

Resurrection and Judgment

"I share Gentry’s concerns about full preterism, particularly on such issues as the consummation of the kingdom and the resurrection of the dead."(Last Days... Sproul p.158)

For all the same reasons, the Resurrection and Judgment scene of Daniel 12, which cannot be taken out of its obvious AD 70 context, must have been realized by the ONE New Testament, "Day of the Lord".

Matthew 24:15,21 "Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet...(Dan.11:31;12:11) 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be."

Daniel 12:1 "And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time."

Daniel 12:1-2 "And at that time (Dan.12:1-time of trouble, Mtt.24:21-great trib.) your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt."

Revelation 20:12-15 "And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered (Dan.12:1-at that time your people shall be delivered) up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each according to his works."

John 5:28-29 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming ("...even now...it is the last hour." I John 1:18) in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth - those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."

The Kingdom of Heaven

In his book, The Last Days According to Jesus, R.C. Sproul states: "If the book of Revelation was written after the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, it seems strange that John would be silent about these cataclysmic events. Granted this is an argument from silence, but the silence is deafening. Not only does Revelation not mention the temple's destruction as a past event, it frequently refers to the temple as still standing. This is seen clearly in Revelation 11 ...Gentry gives impressive evidence to support this conclusion." pp.147-149

Revelation 11:1 "Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there."

So, both Sproul and Gentry use Revelation 11:1, as an internal proof for a pre - AD 70 dating. Yet, just like Chapter 20, the content of Chapter 11 assaults the futurist paradigm. Once again, they find themselves forced to jettison their preterist approach.

In his book, Overcoming Sproul's Resurrection Obstacles, Daniel E. Harden shows that Rev.11:15, was actually prophesied in Daniel 7.

"The last trumpet sounded in A.D. 70. Revelation is a book of judgment against the old covenant and of blessings for the new covenant. Sproul in fact agrees with this. Rev. 11 is imbedded in the heart of this prophecy, which is fulfilled at A.D. 70." p. 93

Rev. 11:15 "The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, (Mtt.24:31; I Thess.4:16; I Cor.15:52) and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: ' The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever."

Daniel 7:14, 18, 27 "Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, Which shall not pass away, And His kingdom the one Which shall not be destroyed. 18 But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom, and possess the kingdom forever, even forever and ever. 27 Then the kingdom and dominion, And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, And all dominions shall serve and obey Him."

Isn’t the book of Revelation, the prophecy of "the things which must shortly take place...for the time is at hand"? Old Testament prophecies seeing there fulfillment "shortly" after its writing. And didn’t Jesus Himself say that, "all things which were written" would be fulfilled by that time?

"I share Gentry’s concerns about full preterism, particularly on such issues as the consummation of the kingdom and the resurrection of the dead." (Last Days... Sproul p.158)

I’m sorry, but in those two passages, Revelation 11, and Daniel 7, I just don’t see a future-to-us "consummation of the kingdom". How many kingdoms are there? 2,000 years ago the kingdom of heaven was at hand. Didn’t it come, like He promised?

Luke 1:30-33 "Then the angel said to her, ‘Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end."

Luke’s account of the Olivet Discourse, equates the "coming of the Son of Man" in AD 70, with the arrival of "the kingdom of God"!

Luke 21:20-32 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 26 ...the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken (Joel 3:16). 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near. 31 ...when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. 32 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place.

The Coming of the Son of Man would bring in the kingdom of God, not end it! There are no verses stating an end to the kingdom. Just the opposite!

"Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

"...and of His kingdom there will be no end."

Resurrection and Judgment - part 2

Even though they use Revelation 11, for support of their position (11:1). R.C. Sproul and Ken Gentry, also postpone portions of the very same Chapter, which conflict with their position.

Isn't the Resurrection and Judgment scene of Revelation Chapter 11, the same as Revelation 20, and Daniel 12?

Revelation 11:18 "The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, (Dan.12:2; Rev.20:11-15) And that You should reward (Mtt.16:27; Rev.20:12-13, 22:12) Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, (Rev.20:12, 19:18) And should destroy those who destroy the earth."

Daniel 12:4, 7, 11 "...seal the book until the time of the end... 7 ...when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered... 11 ...the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation (Mtt.24:15) is set up..."

Hebrews 9:8-9 "...the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing. 9 It was symbolic for the present time..."

Revelation 11:18-19 "...the time of the dead that they should be judged, and that You should reward Your servants... 19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple."

Where Righteousness Dwells

The Prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah, spoke of the days when the "symbolic", "first tabernacle" would be gone, thereby making possible the opening of the True "temple of God" which is in heaven. And His tabernacle, the holy city, New Jerusalem.

Ezekiel 37:24-28 "David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd... 25 Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children’s children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever. 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them and multiply them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 28 The nations also will know that I, the LORD, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore."

Revelation 21:3 "And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God."

Isaiah 60:19-22 "The sun shall no longer be your light by day, Nor for brightness shall the moon give light to you; But the LORD will be to you an everlasting light, And your God your glory. 20 Your sun shall no longer go down, Nor shall your moon withdraw itself; For the LORD will be your everlasting light, And the days of your mourning shall be ended. 21 Also your people shall all be righteous; They shall inherit the land forever, The branch of My planting, The work of My hands, That I may be glorified. 22 A little one shall become a thousand, And a small one a strong nation. I, the LORD, will hasten it in its time."

Revelation 21:3-5,23-24,27; 22:5,17 " ‘...God Himself will be with them and be their God, 4 And God will wipe every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.’ 5 Then He who sat on the throne said, ‘Behold, I make all things new’ 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. 24 And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light... 27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life. 22:5 There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever. 17 ...And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take of the water of life freely."

Hosea 2:21-23 " 'It shall come to pass in that day That I will answer,' says the LORD; 'I will answer the heavens, And they shall answer the earth. The earth shall answer With grain, with new wine, And with oil; They shall answer Jezreel. Then I will sow her for Myself in the earth ("Lay the foundations of the earth" Is. 51:16), And I will have mercy on her who had not obtained mercy; Then I will say to those who were not My people 'You are My people!' And they shall say, 'You are my God!' " (see also Roms. 9:24-25)

Isaiah 65:15,17 "For the Lord God will slay you, And call His servants by another name... 17 For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind." (NGSB- "servants by another name," Acts11:26)

Acts 11:26 "And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch."

II Peter 3:1-2,13 "Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior... 13 Nevertheless we (Christians) according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells."

Hebrews 12:22-28 "But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven... 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the New covenant... 25 ...Him who speaks from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, ‘Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.’ 27 Now this, ‘Yet once more,’ indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made , that the things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken..." (see Joel 3:16, Lk.21:26)

When did God "call His servants by another name"? When would God "create new heavens and a new earth"? When did they "receive" the kingdom? Peter and the first-century Christians were looking for the promised "new heavens and new earth." They would not be disappointed. By AD 70, all that had been written would be fulfilled.

Revelation 20:11, John writes, "the heaven and the earth fled away. And there was found no place for them." (Old Covenant Age) In Revelation 21:1, He writes, "Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth (New Covenant Age), for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."

What major eschatological event, do we find sandwiched between the passing of the OLD (Rev.20:11) and the dawning of the NEW (Rev. 21:1) ?

Revelation 20:11-(16)* "Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face THE EARTH AND THE HEAVEN FLED AWAY. AND THERE WAS FOUND NO PLACE FOR THEM. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. NOW I SAW A NEW HEAVEN AND A NEW EARTH, FOR THE FIRST HEAVEN AND THE FIRST EARTH HAD PASSED AWAY." (emphasis mine)

* There is no Revelation 20:16. But there should be! The Chapter division (21:1), where it has been placed, has made this invisible to us.

The partial preterist wants to pick and choose which eschatological events they will take out of "the things which must shortly take place...for the time is at hand" sandwich of the Beginning of Revelation (1:1,3) and the End (22:6,10). And they also want to take the Resurrection out of this even "tighter" sandwich formed between the "Old" and "New" Covenants! Revelation 20:11-(16)* 21:1

There is no way of getting around it! Everything that the Old Testament Prophets had prophesied were fulfilled in that first-century generation of Christians. Just as Jesus said they would.

In assigning Matthew 16:27 to AD 70, Mr. Sproul has become inconsistent with partial preterism. And consistent with Scripture.

W. W. J. D. ?

When Was Jesus Due?

There is certainly a feeling, "an expectation of those things which are coming on the earth", that pervades the New Testament Scriptures. They were on the brink of a truly unique and fantastic time in world history. They lived in a period which will never be repeated. A "time of the end." And a time for "the New."

It had been over four hundred years, since God, through His prophet Malachi had promised, "I will send you Elijah the prophet..." They knew that Elijah must proceed before the Christ.

Matthew 17:10,12 "And His disciples asked Him, saying, ‘Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?’ "But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him..."

Most likely, they understood the timing of Daniel’s 70 weeks. Therefore, they also understood the timing of the Messiah’s arrival. This is the very reason the People could be deceived by false Christs. They understood the timing, but not the nature.

Matthew 21:41-45 "While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 saying, ‘What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?’ They said to Him, ‘The Son of David,’ 43 He said to them, ‘How then does David in the Spirit call Him ‘Lord ’, saying: 44 ‘The LORD said to my Lord, Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool’? 45 ‘If David then calls Him ‘Lord’, how is He his Son?’ 46 And no one was able to answer Him a word, nor from that day on did anyone dare question Him anymore."

I Corinthians 2:7-8 "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory."

They understood the timing, but not the nature.

Why has the Church, for two thousand years taught that, Christ’s Coming is still in OUR future? In Chapter 13 of his book, THE MESSIAH’S RETURN, Delayed? Fulfilled? or Double-Fulfillment?, Timothy A. James explains:

"The belief in the failure of Christ’s prophecies stem from the attempts of a Gentile- dominated church after A.D. 70 trying to understand Jewish concepts. This lack of understanding should not amaze us, for most of the Jewish world misunderstood the prophecies of His first coming, so why should we expect any difference in recognition of His second coming by Gentile interpreters? The silence of the period after the destruction was a direct result of the downfall and captivity of the Jewish Nation. Along with its end the Jewish Christians were scattered and became almost lost to history. If any literature was written by them after the fall of Jerusalem that taught the return of Christ in that event, there is good reason to believe that it was suppressed or beyond the understanding of the dominant Gentile church (see E. Hampden-Cook’s section in Appendix I). Careful study of Rabbinic sources shows that the remnant of the Jewish nation actively destroyed all apocalyptic works speaking of an imminent end after A.D. 70 because of its embarrassment to them. Hence, suppression of Jewish/Christian material referring to fulfilled imminence was a most likely target of this group also. Another factor related to this is N. B. Stonehouse’s mention of a definite division in the church after A.D. 70. (Apocalypse, p.139f). Syrian Christianity was isolated from the Greek world because of its Aramaic language. This barrier caused a more pure line of understanding and tradition. Therefore, the Greek church considered the Syrian church "heretical" because they rejected the Greek’s sensual chiliasm and held to a spiritual/figurative understanding of Jewish/Christian apocalyptic. This distaste for sensual chiliasm was a major factor in their total rejection of the Apocalypse in the early Syrian texts and canon. It wasn’t till later that Revelation was added, and then with a heading that placed its date in reign of Nero, before the A.D. 70 event.

Interpretation of Scripture by the Gentile-dominated church was caught up in the idea of a physical return and a literal interpretation of the very figurative Jewish apocalyptic language found in the book of Revelation and other OT & NT prophecies. Yet, even in the early church, Christ’s return was seen by the Jewish Christians to be a spiritual change in the authority of the Kingdom. Such can be seen in the "jumping the gun" of the early church in the teaching that the Lord had come before A.D. 70, (II Thess. 2:1-2). This premature teaching was dangerous to the early church since it implied an acceptance of the Temple cultus, thus putting Christianity in the category of just a new sect of Judaism, rather than the fulfillment of the whole thing.

The fact that they believed the Lord had come before A.D. 70 shows that they interpreted His return as a spiritual coming in the early church. Even though they were premature, it only supports our early research that they expected His return just as He said, in that generation.

There are only two main verses that have loosely been used to assume a physical return of Christ by the Greek-dominated church. The first is Acts 1:9-11 (the Ascension), "he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight," after this the two angels reassured the disciples saying, "this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as you have seen him go into heaven." (emphasis mine, tj.) The emphasis here is not on the transfigured form, but on the manner in which he ascended and would return, "in a cloud." This event was a reaffirmation of Jesus’ being the apocalyptic "Son of Man" spoken of in Daniel and the Gospels. That he, "the Son of Man," came with the clouds of heaven (Daniel 7:13), is later emphatically stated to be fulfilled in His return, in numerous places (Matt.16:27f; 24:30; Mark 13:26; and Luke 21:27).

The second verse under consideration is Revelation 1:7, "Behold, he cometh in the clouds and every eye shall see him, every one which pierced him: and all the kindred of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen." Here one finds the same apocalyptic "Son of Man" imagery regarding His "coming in the clouds." The language of the text shows that literally, those that would see him were even who had "pierced him", namely the Jews (Acts 2:23,36; 5:30). In His parousia in judgment on the Jewish theocracy, those that had rejected Him would now "see" the truth of Jesus’ claims and their error, i.e. a nationalistic expectation of the Kingdom (Matthew 26:64). Truly, upon a close investigation of the subject, there are not any verses in the New Testament that point to any other manner of coming other than a spiritual parousia of Christ in a judgment of God’s enemies at the redemptive-historical end-time of the Old Covenant system. In fulfilling this event, the bondage of the non-occurrence theory is vanquished."

Paul before Felix - "...thus I worship the ancestral God, believing all the things according to the law and the things in the prophets having been written, having hope toward - God, which these [them]selves expect, a resurrection to be about to be both of just and of unjust. Acts 24:14-15 (The Interlinear NASB-NIV)

"I solemnly witness before - God and Christ Jesus, the [one] being about to judge living [ones] and dead, both [by] the appearance of him and [by] the kingdom of him" II Timothy 4:1 (The Interlinear NASB-NIV)

"For yet a little while,
And He who is coming will come and will not tarry."
Hebrews 10:37

"...Surely I am coming quickly."
Revelation 22:20

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